攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint)

2003-06-23, 09:06

一般的定義：

「On-sight」：事前不知道該路線的攀爬資訊，第一次爬該路線就無墜落成功\地完攀。
Climbing a route for the first time and not falling, without having been given any previous information concerning the route.

「Redpoint」：事前曾練習爬過該路線，以先鋒攀登的方式、無墜落地完攀該路線。
To successfully climb a route on lead, without falling, after practice or rehearsal of required sequence.

較嚴謹的定義：

「On-sight」：定義同上，要自己掛快扣。

「Redpoint」：定義同上，要自己掛快扣。
To lead a route, clipping protection as you go, without falling or resting on pro.

「Flash」：定義同on-sight，要自己掛快扣，事前可以知道攀爬資訊（例如看別人爬、問別人怎爬）
to climb a route first try without ever having touched the route, but with the aid of beta.

「Pinkpoint」：定義同on-sight，快扣已掛在上面，只須把繩子掛進快扣中即可。
To lead (without falling) a climb that has been pre-protected with anchors rigged with carabiners.

其它：

「Hangdogging」：爬路線中途，會利用繩子受力休息。
”Climbing” a route, usuallying bolt to bolt, with the aid of the rope to hang and rest.
When a leader hangs from a piece of protection to rest, then continues on without lowering back to the ground; not a free ascent.

參考資料：
Eric J. Horst, 「How to climb 5.12」, 1997
Heather Reynolds Sagar, 「Climbing your Best」,2001
John Long, 「How to Rock Climb!」, 1998

如有錯誤或誤解意義的地方,請不吝指教~

-------

When I have a little time, I climb;
and if any is left, I eat and sleep.

「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；
另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-06-14 16:27 ]

[ 這篇文章修改由: shin 在 2003-06-15 04:42 ]

2003-06-23, 09:06

雖然Flash這個字在多本書中都定義為on-Sight的同義字....差別只在於是否有事先知道怎麼爬或看過別人怎麼爬

但是習慣上媒體使用Flashes這個字眼時大多是指該路線第一次有人redpoint上去時,Climbing雜誌就常用Hot Flashes這個標題.
但是就定義上而言;許\多路線都是試了很多次才redpoint上去的,根本不能算是Flash,應該只能算是Hot Redpoint

所以我認為Flash應該也可以用來指,一條路線第一次有人red point上去吧!

當然;這只是我個人的意見而已...
Steven Chen

2003-06-23, 09:06

對於這些名詞，我是先嘗試就英文字面上的意思，在思考為何老外要如此定義，我的解讀如下，有些好笑，請包涵！

On-Sight：英文中好像有第一眼看到的意思。第一眼看到這個路線就完攀，厲不厲害？ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img]

Flash：閃光燈的英文好像就是它。黑暗中，什麼都看不到；突然，有人用閃光燈閃了一下，啊！我看到了一些影像，一些訊息，然後，就完攀了。 [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Red-Poing：不用說了吧，重點！都已經先畫上重點了，還爬不上？嘿...嘿...嘿...！ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_cool.gif[/img]

Pink-Poing：畫了重點不打緊，居然還偷偷做了一二題，噯.....！ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_frown.gif[/img]

至於多了個 Hot 嗎？ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_confused.gif[/img]
Hot News 是啥意思啊？或許\有點關聯吧！ [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]

Hang-Dogging：?死貓吊樹頭，死狗放水流?。這是咱們的民間習俗，或許\老外和咱們不同，死狗是吊樹頭的吧！喂！吊夠了吧，下來吃點心咯！來吃 Hot Dog 喔！！ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_mad.gif[/img]

DebugGuy

//------------
事後諸葛亮，
事前豬一樣。

叫我 DebugGuy！
//------------

唉！太久沒打字了，居然就打了二個白字。還修了二次。
[ 這篇文章修改由: DebugGuy 在 2003-06-18 14:53 ]

[ 這篇文章修改由: DebugGuy 在 2003-06-18 14:55 ]

2003-06-23, 09:06

順便問一個常在雜誌上看到的字：testpiece(s)，
字典查不太到。

---

好像只有我要考到最後一天！！！累。

2003-06-23, 09:06

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2003-06-18 20:04, mong wrote:
順便問一個常在雜誌上看到的字：testpiece(s)，
字典查不太到。
</BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

在google.com中搜尋testpiece會出現非常多筆相關的文章,很多都跟攀岩或實驗室有關,但testpiece在攀岩的文章中似乎有很多種意思,不是很確定.

我在rockclimbing.com放了一篇詢問testpiece的文章,希望能夠得到好的答案[img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img] http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/v...33767&forum=55

-------

When I have a little time, I climb;
and if any is left, I eat and sleep.

「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；
另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-06-19 14:43 ]

2003-06-23, 09:06

阿福的解釋---

testpiece----
it means a very good or excellent thing, a good route for everyone to try.

because when there is a new route, then my friend would say it is a testpiece, but it has to be a good route.

just a new good route, they called it testpiece,
like\"經典路線\"or \"漂亮路線\"

這有一些文章的例子---

The \"How to judge what level you are\" brought to mind a new branch thread: What are testpieces exist for each grade? Routes where folks regularly s(pr)ay, \"If you call yourself a 5.M climber, try this!\"

Here are a few that (based on reputation) I believe are real testpieces, yet that I think are/were graded correctly. Mine have a distinctly California bias, of course, and others have some alpine elements thrown in for spice:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/v...ight=testpiece

Climb the obvious roof, mentioned in the current guidebook as a 7a top-rope test-piece. (6m) Possibly climbed previously by Ben Moon Search by location Route name Crag name Guidebook any Bouldering in the Peak District Vol 1 Bouldering ...

Jul 10:Graham & Parady do Elfe (F9a) Both Dave Graham and Luke Parady have done Elfe, F9a, on their 5th try. Elfe is Fred Nicole\'s old test-piece done in 1995, and since repeated by Klem Leskot and Iker Pou. The route, in the Grimselpass in Switzerland, is hugely overhanging; have a look for ...

-------

When I have a little time, I climb;
and if any is left, I eat and sleep.

「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；
另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-06-19 15:13 ]

2003-06-23, 09:06

[quote]
On 2003-06-14 16:23, chao wrote:

較嚴謹的定義：

「On-sight」：定義同上，要自己掛快扣。

「Redpoint」：定義同上，要自己掛快扣。
To lead a route, clipping protection as you go, without falling or resting on pro.

「Flash」：定義同on-sight，要自己掛快扣，事前可以知道攀爬資訊（例如看別人爬、問別人怎爬）
to climb a route first try without ever having touched the route, but with the aid of beta.

「Pinkpoint」：定義同on-sight，快扣已掛在上面，只須把繩子掛進快扣中即可。
To lead (without falling) a climb that has been pre-protected with anchors rigged with carabiners.

那瞎馬爬上去的5.15a路線只能說是pinkpoint 囉?
世界杯比賽若完攀路線也只是pinkpoint 而已嗎???
兩者快扣皆已事先掛好,前者試了n次,後者不能練習
定義怎會一樣呢? [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[ 這篇文章修改由: XiaoWei 在 2003-06-20 17:11 ]

2003-06-23, 09:06

不知道美國為什麼會分的這麼細,我推測跟文化有些關係,看了這篇Steven翻譯的這篇1996年的文章--What\'s your problem?--,應該就能多少了解到他們為什麼這麼計較各種不同的攀爬名詞(不知道現在還會不會這樣?)

我是認為就分成 on-sight 及 redpoint就好了,頂多加註說明細節即可(是不是自己掛快扣,或是有沒有先問人怎麼爬).

而且比賽的情形就是快扣掛好在上面了,所以大家應該也都習慣只分\"第一次爬即完攀\"(on-sight)及\"練習後才完攀\"(redpoint)的分法.

「On-sight」：事前不知道該路線的攀爬資訊，第一次爬該路線就無墜落成功\地完攀。
Climbing a route for the first time and not falling, without having been given any previous information concerning the route.

「Redpoint」：事前曾練習爬過該路線，以先鋒攀登的方式、無墜落地完攀該路線。
To successfully climb a route on lead, without falling, after practice or rehearsal of required sequence.

[addsig]

2003-06-23, 09:06

Debugguy\'s interpretation is really funny - and perhaps accurate. I like it! Eric\'s (Ah-Fu) explanation about \"testpieces\" is also informative. I like it, too.
I believe (my belief may be wrong) that those differentiations began as sport climbing started to became popular -- in other words, these terms are relevant only to the filed of sport climbing. Knowing beta or not is important and sometime critical to a bolted 13 or 14 route, but may not be so to a 12 or even 11 trad route.
In the meantime, this differentiation is telling about the difference between trad and sport climbing -- the former is mainly mental and the latter physical.
Defined more generally, able to climb 13 sport is less impressive in terms of \"climbing ability\" than able to do 11 or 12 traditional (Yuji did not become a \'good\' climber until he did - flashed - Pheonix which is a 13 trad route, and if you can do \"Emotional Rescue\" at Enclosure, a Teton classic trad route which is only 11, 6 pitches, you would be much more likely and widely regarded as a \"good climber\" than if you redpoint \"To Bolt or Not To Be\".)
I think it is all natural for sport climbing to become a more and more \"detailed\" competition because its focus is narrow, whereas in trad climbing people tend not to care that much because the challenges there are much more multifaceted. But my belief, again, may be wrong. [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

2003-06-23, 09:06	#1
chao 攀岩癌症患者註冊日期: 2000-07 文章: 619	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) 一般的定義：「On-sight」：事前不知道該路線的攀爬資訊，第一次爬該路線就無墜落成功\地完攀。 Climbing a route for the first time and not falling, without having been given any previous information concerning the route. 「Redpoint」：事前曾練習爬過該路線，以先鋒攀登的方式、無墜落地完攀該路線。 To successfully climb a route on lead, without falling, after practice or rehearsal of required sequence. 較嚴謹的定義：「On-sight」：定義同上，要自己掛快扣。「Redpoint」：定義同上，要自己掛快扣。 To lead a route, clipping protection as you go, without falling or resting on pro. 「Flash」：定義同on-sight，要自己掛快扣，事前可以知道攀爬資訊（例如看別人爬、問別人怎爬） to climb a route first try without ever having touched the route, but with the aid of beta. 「Pinkpoint」：定義同on-sight，快扣已掛在上面，只須把繩子掛進快扣中即可。 To lead (without falling) a climb that has been pre-protected with anchors rigged with carabiners. 其它：「Hangdogging」：爬路線中途，會利用繩子受力休息。 ”Climbing” a route, usuallying bolt to bolt, with the aid of the rope to hang and rest. When a leader hangs from a piece of protection to rest, then continues on without lowering back to the ground; not a free ascent. 參考資料： Eric J. Horst, 「How to climb 5.12」, 1997 Heather Reynolds Sagar, 「Climbing your Best」,2001 John Long, 「How to Rock Climb!」, 1998 如有錯誤或誤解意義的地方,請不吝指教~ ------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。 <font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-06-14 16:27 ]</font> <font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: shin 在 2003-06-15 04:42 ]</font> __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

2003-06-23, 09:06	#2
imported_Anonymous 攀岩癌症患者註冊日期: 2004-02 文章: 551	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) 雖然Flash這個字在多本書中都定義為on-Sight的同義字....差別只在於是否有事先知道怎麼爬或看過別人怎麼爬但是習慣上媒體使用Flashes這個字眼時大多是指該路線第一次有人redpoint上去時,Climbing雜誌就常用Hot Flashes這個標題. 但是就定義上而言;許\多路線都是試了很多次才redpoint上去的,根本不能算是Flash,應該只能算是Hot Redpoint 所以我認為Flash應該也可以用來指,一條路線第一次有人red point上去吧! 當然;這只是我個人的意見而已... Steven Chen

2003-06-23, 09:06	#3
DebugGuy 週末攀岩者註冊日期: 2003-05 文章: 45	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) 對於這些名詞，我是先嘗試就英文字面上的意思，在思考為何老外要如此定義，我的解讀如下，有些好笑，請包涵！ On-Sight：英文中好像有第一眼看到的意思。第一眼看到這個路線就完攀，厲不厲害？ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img] Flash：閃光燈的英文好像就是它。黑暗中，什麼都看不到；突然，有人用閃光燈閃了一下，啊！我看到了一些影像，一些訊息，然後，就完攀了。 [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img] Red-Poing：不用說了吧，重點！都已經先畫上重點了，還爬不上？嘿...嘿...嘿...！ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_cool.gif[/img] Pink-Poing：畫了重點不打緊，居然還偷偷做了一二題，噯.....！ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_frown.gif[/img] 至於多了個 Hot 嗎？ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_confused.gif[/img] Hot News 是啥意思啊？或許\有點關聯吧！ [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] Hang-Dogging：?死貓吊樹頭，死狗放水流?。這是咱們的民間習俗，或許\老外和咱們不同，死狗是吊樹頭的吧！喂！吊夠了吧，下來吃點心咯！來吃 Hot Dog 喔！！ [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_mad.gif[/img] DebugGuy //------------ 事後諸葛亮，事前豬一樣。叫我 DebugGuy！ //------------ 唉！太久沒打字了，居然就打了二個白字。還修了二次。 <font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: DebugGuy 在 2003-06-18 14:53 ]</font> <font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: DebugGuy 在 2003-06-18 14:55 ]</font> __________________ //---------------------------------------------- 事後諸葛亮，事前豬一樣。大家都一樣！叫我 DebugGuy！ //----------------------------------------------

2003-06-23, 09:06	#4
mong 攀言新手註冊日期: 2003-05 文章: 8 傳送 Skype™ 訊息給 mong	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) 順便問一個常在雜誌上看到的字：testpiece(s)，字典查不太到。 --- 好像只有我要考到最後一天！！！累。

2003-06-23, 09:06	#5
chao 攀岩癌症患者註冊日期: 2000-07 文章: 619	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) <TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE> On 2003-06-18 20:04, mong wrote: 順便問一個常在雜誌上看到的字：testpiece(s)，字典查不太到。 </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE> 在google.com中搜尋testpiece會出現非常多筆相關的文章,很多都跟攀岩或實驗室有關,但testpiece在攀岩的文章中似乎有很多種意思,不是很確定. 我在rockclimbing.com放了一篇詢問testpiece的文章,希望能夠得到好的答案[img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img] http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/v...33767&forum=55 ------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。 <font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-06-19 14:43 ]</font> __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

2003-06-23, 09:06	#6
chao 攀岩癌症患者註冊日期: 2000-07 文章: 619	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) 阿福的解釋--- testpiece---- it means a very good or excellent thing, a good route for everyone to try. because when there is a new route, then my friend would say it is a testpiece, but it has to be a good route. just a new good route, they called it testpiece, like\"經典路線\"or \"漂亮路線\" 這有一些文章的例子--- The \"How to judge what level you are\" brought to mind a new branch thread: What are testpieces exist for each grade? Routes where folks regularly s(pr)ay, \"If you call yourself a 5.M climber, try this!\" Here are a few that (based on reputation) I believe are real testpieces, yet that I think are/were graded correctly. Mine have a distinctly California bias, of course, and others have some alpine elements thrown in for spice: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/v...ight=testpiece Climb the obvious roof, mentioned in the current guidebook as a 7a top-rope test-piece. (6m) Possibly climbed previously by Ben Moon Search by location Route name Crag name Guidebook any Bouldering in the Peak District Vol 1 Bouldering ... Jul 10:Graham & Parady do Elfe (F9a) Both Dave Graham and Luke Parady have done Elfe, F9a, on their 5th try. Elfe is Fred Nicole\'s old test-piece done in 1995, and since repeated by Klem Leskot and Iker Pou. The route, in the Grimselpass in Switzerland, is hugely overhanging; have a look for ... ------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。 <font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-06-19 15:13 ]</font> __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

2003-06-23, 09:06	#7
XiaoWei 攀言癌症患者註冊日期: 2003-03 文章: 338	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) [quote] On 2003-06-14 16:23, chao wrote: 較嚴謹的定義：「On-sight」：定義同上，要自己掛快扣。「Redpoint」：定義同上，要自己掛快扣。 To lead a route, clipping protection as you go, without falling or resting on pro. 「Flash」：定義同on-sight，要自己掛快扣，事前可以知道攀爬資訊（例如看別人爬、問別人怎爬） to climb a route first try without ever having touched the route, but with the aid of beta. 「Pinkpoint」：定義同on-sight，快扣已掛在上面，只須把繩子掛進快扣中即可。 To lead (without falling) a climb that has been pre-protected with anchors rigged with carabiners. 那瞎馬爬上去的5.15a路線只能說是pinkpoint 囉? 世界杯比賽若完攀路線也只是pinkpoint 而已嗎??? 兩者快扣皆已事先掛好,前者試了n次,後者不能練習定義怎會一樣呢? [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_confused.gif[/img] <font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: XiaoWei 在 2003-06-20 17:11 ]</font>

2003-06-23, 09:06	#8
chao 攀岩癌症患者註冊日期: 2000-07 文章: 619	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) 不知道美國為什麼會分的這麼細,我推測跟文化有些關係,看了這篇Steven翻譯的這篇1996年的文章--What\'s your problem?--,應該就能多少了解到他們為什麼這麼計較各種不同的攀爬名詞(不知道現在還會不會這樣?) 我是認為就分成 on-sight 及 redpoint就好了,頂多加註說明細節即可(是不是自己掛快扣,或是有沒有先問人怎麼爬). 而且比賽的情形就是快扣掛好在上面了,所以大家應該也都習慣只分\"第一次爬即完攀\"(on-sight)及\"練習後才完攀\"(redpoint)的分法. 「On-sight」：事前不知道該路線的攀爬資訊，第一次爬該路線就無墜落成功\地完攀。 Climbing a route for the first time and not falling, without having been given any previous information concerning the route. 「Redpoint」：事前曾練習爬過該路線，以先鋒攀登的方式、無墜落地完攀該路線。 To successfully climb a route on lead, without falling, after practice or rehearsal of required sequence. [addsig] __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

2003-06-23, 09:06	#9
Ta-Chi 輕度攀岩者註冊日期: 2003-05 文章: 77	攀岩名詞解釋(On-sight、Redpoint) Debugguy\'s interpretation is really funny - and perhaps accurate. I like it! Eric\'s (Ah-Fu) explanation about \"testpieces\" is also informative. I like it, too. I believe (my belief may be wrong) that those differentiations began as sport climbing started to became popular -- in other words, these terms are relevant only to the filed of sport climbing. Knowing beta or not is important and sometime critical to a bolted 13 or 14 route, but may not be so to a 12 or even 11 trad route. In the meantime, this differentiation is telling about the difference between trad and sport climbing -- the former is mainly mental and the latter physical. Defined more generally, able to climb 13 sport is less impressive in terms of \"climbing ability\" than able to do 11 or 12 traditional (Yuji did not become a \'good\' climber until he did - flashed - Pheonix which is a 13 trad route, and if you can do \"Emotional Rescue\" at Enclosure, a Teton classic trad route which is only 11, 6 pitches, you would be much more likely and widely regarded as a \"good climber\" than if you redpoint \"To Bolt or Not To Be\".) I think it is all natural for sport climbing to become a more and more \"detailed\" competition because its focus is narrow, whereas in trad climbing people tend not to care that much because the challenges there are much more multifaceted. But my belief, again, may be wrong. [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

主題工具
顯示可列印版本郵寄本頁給好友